Waking Up to a Changing Church

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[0:00] Good morning. My name is Seung Chan Ra. I'm on the faculty at Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, California, and I am speaking to you from Fuller Seminary, my office, hence the many, many books in the background. I really want to thank you, the congregations that are engaging the book, Many Colors. As an author, I could say that an author really appreciates when people read and study the book. That feels good that folks are actually reading the book together and wanting to apply the book together. Because the extra 50 cents per book that I receive as royalty will, you know, pay for lunch maybe, but that's about it. So a lot of authors, we do it not for the money, because there's not a whole lot of money there, but we really do it for the impact and that folks would engage the book and study the book. So I'm going to start with the book. I thought as an introduction, I think I thought it might be fun to just kind of talk about how this particular book Many Colors came about. And the background is actually a church basketball game. So this is an admonition to play more basketball as a church. Steve, who is a member of the church, was also with me at Parkwood. And I was an interim pastor at Parkwood church

[1:17] in the Chicago area. And just a few times a year we would get together to play basketball. I get some matched up with a guy named madison trammell and madison is about six foot two he's a great ball player i'm about half of that and not good of a ball player we had a lot of fun playing and afterwards madison came up to me and said hey can we talk about something i said sure and madison uh had just moved from being an editor at christianity today to an acquisition editor at moody publications moody publishers and we got together and madison mentioned uh hey i have this idea for a book and i think you might be the perfect person for for this book and he talked about how there are a lot of books out there in the business community that talk about cultural competence and cultural intelligence uh then he mentioned that there are no books on this in the christian community now this was more than a decade ago so obviously the the landscape has changed but back then there were very few books that talked about the practical aspects written from a christian perspective on culture cultural competence cultural diversity those kinds of things that's kind of commonplace now but again 10 years ago was not really talked

[2:35] about uh so because um madison's a good friend and he had this great idea i wanted to make sure that we did the book with moody press which is why it was published in the moody press uh and madison is now with zondervan and also out here in california i'm so thankful for him for his idea that sparked this book that you are going to be reading together um the background for me on a personal level of why i wanted to write in the style that i did and the book that that is being discussed uh is that in my personal life story i've always tried to balance an academic theology with practical application to real life ministry that's a an important mantra for me and an important part of my value system balancing academic theology with practical application uh and that comes from my kind of career path uh for 17 years of my life i was a pastor and i did pretty much everything in uh that you could think of in ministry i was a youth pastor a college pastor a senior citizens pastor a church planter associate pastor worship leader founding pastor a senior pastor interim pastor uh the only thing i've never done is children's pastor pastor and i love kids i just would shake with fear uh and trembling if i if you were to put me in

[3:57] front of a group of kids to tell a sermon or a story too because uh that's some real scary stuff right there to to give the children sermon that's that's the real challenge of ministry uh but so for 17 years i did ministry and i was a serving in the church and admit a lot of different ways but in the last 16 years i've focused a lot on my academic world and i spent 15 years uh doing a lot of teaching in north park seminary which is our denominational seminary covenant seminary in chicago and then last year i transitioned to work here at fuller theological seminary because the weather is so much nicer here in pasadena than it is in chicago uh but the 17 years in in pastoral ministry and 16 years in academic world uh it's kind of my career is half and half uh it's it's like even uh half in the academic world and half in the pastoral world and so that's the lens that i've been focusing on for the last 15 years and i've been focusing on for almost almost almost almost almost I am going to use a Bible passage today. I'm going to use Ephesians chapter 5, and in Ephesians it talks about, awake, O sleeper, put off thy slumber, and Christ will set you free. This is an important passage to me because the idea of being awake is an important thing for theologians, for pastors,

[5:42] pastors, for Christians to engage. That's why I kind of find it funny that right now the word woke is an insult, and I don't get that because, you know, in the Bible, to be awake, to be woke, is actually a really good thing. In fact, I want the church to be woke. I want the pastor to be woke. I want the church and members of the church to be woke because what's the alternative? Well, how is your church? Oh, our church is asleep. Our church is dead. Our church, is comatose. Is your pastor woke? Oh, no, he's sleepy and puts everybody to sleep. That's not the testimony I want for my church. I want my church to be awake, and I want my church to be awake in the sense of being genuinely aware of what is going on in the world around us, and this is important for us to do as Christians. To be woke does not mean certain political party affiliation, or to be woke doesn't mean you have to have certain political, ideology. To be awake, as Ephesians talks about, means to be awake and aware of what's going on in the world around us, and that's an important part of how we begin to do the work of concern around issues like cultural competency and work around diversity because the world is different than it was 50 years ago. The world has changed, and so we need to do what practical theologians call

[7:12] the process of clarification, a social analysis that allows us to see the world and say, hey, these are the needs, and that means being awake, not asleep, not having your ears closed and your head buried in the sand, and so in order to do good theology, to do good application, and to do good work in the church, I think we need to be awake, and I think we need to do the analysis and reflection that helps us to be aware of what is going on in the world around us. And here's one reality that led to the writing of Many Colors, and that reality is that American Christianity is drastically dramatically changing, especially over the last 20 years. Now, we know this in the area of global Christianity. The church, which was very Western and Euro-North American-centric for centuries, it was kind of centered in the Atlantic Ocean, Europe and North America. But those of you who know, you know that the church is a very Western, European, and Latin American church. And so, you know, historians, theologians, missiologists have all recognized that the center of Christianity is no longer Europe and North America. The center of Christianity is Africa, Asia, and Latin America. And many of you know that the booming church is really happening in Asia,

[8:29] Africa, and Latin America. The largest churches in the world are not in the U.S. anymore. They're in Korea. They're in Africa. They're in Latin America and Nigeria. And this is the social reality. That Christianity is booming, but it's really booming on the global scale, which means it's getting more and more diverse. It's no longer kind of a Western, Euro-North American-centric faith. It is a global faith with all the diversity that it means. Now, add to that the the demographic changes in American society. And many of you know this, that by 2023, this is the census data, so next year, 2023, the majority of all children and America are going to be people of color. We will have no clear ethnic majority for everyone under the age of 18. Now, think about that. That is a huge development. Now, those of us in California know that this is already a reality. If you just kind of walk out onto the street and drive around your neighborhood, you know that this is very much the case. We live in a very diverse America. But by 2023, half of all the children in the entire U.S. will be of non-European descent. The projection, of course, is that by 2042, half of all children in, half of all people in America will be of non-European descent.

[9:48] This has also been very evident in the church. The church has experienced great diversity and the churches that are diverse, like the Covenant Church, Pentecostal churches, these churches are churches that are growing. And the churches that are less diverse, churches that are monolithic, mono-ethnic, mostly white, they tend to be smaller or they tend to be shrinking or dying churches. And so we're dealing with a social reality. The world is changing. The demographics of our nation and of the church is changing very dramatically and we need to prepare ourselves for that. I get the chance to speak at a lot of Christian colleges and seminaries and I can speak at their chapel, at their convocation, at the graduation service, and this is what I usually say. I say if you are not reading a diverse group of authors or hearing from a diverse group of people, you are not going to be able to get a good education. You're not going to be able to get a good education. You're not going to be able to get a good education. And you're not engaging the whole diversity of what is out there in global Christianity and what is happening already in American Christianity. You're not getting an education for the future. You're getting an education for the past. In fact, if all you're reading are books

[10:58] and hearing from professors who are really reflecting of a demographic from the 1950s, then you should ask for 1950s tuition because that's the education you're getting. But you want education to make sense for 2042 and 2023. And we want a church that's ready for 2023 and 2042. And so what can we do as a church? Well, we can engage this social reality. Not run away and hide. Not go back to sleep. But to actually awake and say, hey this is what's going on in the world. And that's why we want to read a book like this. Because we want to be prepared as the world around us. As the culture around us. begins to change so dramatically and so um i hope this book offers a good theological reflection i hope this book offers some practical ways of moving forward uh the section that um that i want you to uh begin with and make sure you get before you jump into the practical application is the need for a theology of culture a need for theological practices like lament uh the need for a cultural competency that comes from scripture because we have a robust and deep theology of culture we know our history we know the analysis and social reality these are all important parts of the church's response uh the practical response that comes from a theological depth

[12:23] and so i want to challenge you as you read this book together and as you think about the passages in this book and read through some of the application um that it takes real life it takes the good work and the embodied practices of the church to confront the broken narratives in our society and there are a lot of broken narratives you know this that there are narratives about um the way the world works uh racism sexism uh there's just so much stuff that's broken in our world and there's so many broken narratives in our world and the way you beat and defeat and counteract the broken narratives of our society is that it takes real life for for no animals will be harmed in this illustration, I promise. So you've got an animal at the bottom that you love. You don't want that animal to be hurt. And you're in the middle of that hill, and you see this tire rolling down the hill, and it's going to hurt somebody. And so you've got some options here. And your first instinct is to just stand in front of it. Hey, you're a hero. You're a big man. And you're going to stand and stop that tire. Well, what's going to happen? You're going to get flattened. You on your own can't fight this. It's too big. It's too strong. And then you get another idea. So I'm going to jump into the tire.

[14:07] I'm going to change the system. I'm going to change the system and move it in a different direction. But what's going to happen? The momentum of the tire is going to get you caught up in it. And you're going to add to that momentum and add to that dysfunctional and broken narrative. So you can't beat a narrative by your individual authority and power. You can't beat a narrative because it's too strong from within. You've got to create you can't beat a narrative by your counter narratives. And so if there's a narrative that is out there, and this is true, of it's better if people live apart. It's better if we worship apart. It's better if we have churches that are racially segregated. And that was, by the way, sadly, the dominant way of doing church for several decades in America. From the 1960s and 70s and 80s, even to about 20 years ago, the dominant way of doing church was something called the homogenous unit principle. It was a bad narrative. It was a narrative that said, it doesn't matter about the diversity. We're just going to hang out with people like ourselves and grow the church in this way. That's a bad narrative. Now, you can't single-handedly fight that narrative. You can't try to be a part of

[15:17] that and actually change the narrative. You create new narratives, narratives of diverse churches, narrative of churches that cross all the different range of differences, and yet still can worship one God and worship Jesus and worship together in the name of Jesus. That's a powerful counter narrative. The world has a broken narrative about race relations. The world has a broken narrative about how to treat the alien and immigrant among us. The world has a broken narrative about how we care for one another despite our differences. But the church needs to offer. A counter narrative. I pray that as you go through this material together, you will learn how to live as a community, as God's people, to live and embody these counter narratives. May the Lord add a blessing to your work and to the great, great calling of serving him together as the body of Christ. Amen.

[16:24] Well, now we are on with Dr. Ra. And let's go to gallery view real quick so we can see him. And up here is our chat log. So you can put, you'll be able to see any questions in there. And I'll be reading questions from the emails. And Dr. Ra, you're on with us by Zoom. You're not watching the YouTube stream? Yeah, I'm on Zoom. Yes, Zoom. Okay, then we're not going to get any echo. So again, just the reminder here that if you're going to join by Zoom, then turn off or mute the device that you have YouTube video on. So what I want to do now, and thank you, Dr. Ra. I love this, what you said about the counter narrative. I've already written down two questions. We're going to save mine to the end.

[17:10] Because I was worried that we, you know, we need to sort of salt the mine and start asking questions. But we're not going to, we're not going to need to do that. Because already, we have two questions by email. And I want to do them in the order that we receive them. So the first question is from Steve Lee, whom you know. He wrote this, a couple of related questions. From Yuki and Steve, what might you suggest for us individually, or as a church, to help us prepare ourselves as we begin to read your book so that we are open to God's direction? So how do we prepare ourselves as we begin to read your book? That's the question. Yeah, great question. It's a good question, by the way, to ask anytime you read a book. What do I need? And, you know, as Christians, especially, who are trying to do this book for the benefit of the church, begin with prayer. To say, God, I'm going to read this book for you. So if you want to read some verses for me. So if you want some So if you want some for me. So if you want some for me.

[18:07] So if you want some for me So if you want some for me So if you want some for me So if you want some for me for me for me for me conscience and our guide. And what the Holy Spirit is able to do when we read books, the Bible, any of these texts, is to actually challenge us to ask the question, hey, could I have been wrong about this? Or to convict us and say, hey, I got to think about this a little bit more. So it's usually not this kind of, you know, voice from heaven that says you need to listen. It's usually that kind of slight tug of the Holy Spirit saying, hey, read that passage again, or think about that a little bit more. So that to me, that's still a small, quiet voice that the Holy Spirit is an important guide in our reading. So I would say in small groups, when you're reading it together, and as an individual, when you're reading the text, begin with prayer. Begin with the kind of the heart that says, God, what do you have to show me? What do you have to teach me? And ultimately, at the end, how are you going to change me out of the reading of this text? And again, that's the work of the Holy Spirit. No, writer with any kind of special skills can change hearts, but it really is the Spirit of God that

[19:35] changes hearts. Perfect. Oh, good. Thank you for that. And so the answer, pray, listen, be aware to the Spirit. The next question from Steve, you asked too, is what do you do? What do you do personally? So this is about being awake. What do you do, Dr. Ra, personally to be alert and to be sensitive to God's work in the church and the world? And he gives a, sort of parenthetical comment. I have benefited, this is Steve speaking. I have benefited from your books and writings that seem to be in tune with what God is doing in this world. And I'm just curious if you have any practices or suggestions for us about how to be awake and in tune with what's happening in the world. Well, this is important for me as a personal practice for decades and decades. And I'll be very vulnerable and personal about this. I grew up in a single parent home. My father wasn't around. And I grew up in a single parent home. And I grew up in a single household. So I remember having some great experiences with some great people. So I remember having some great experiences with some great people. So I remember having some great experiences with some great people. So I remember having some great experiences with some great people. So I

[20:42] remember having some great experiences with some great people. So I remember having some great experiences with some great people. So I remember having some great experiences with some great experiences with some great people. So I remember having some great experiences with some great experiences with some great people. So I remember having some great experiences with some great experiences with some great people. So I remember having some great experiences with some great experiences with some great people. So I remember having some great experiences with some great people. So I remember having some great maybe further along, maybe not even older, but further along in this journey, and to learn from them. And the practice for me is not just learning from older folks and those who have gone on before, but to do that in a very real cross-cultural way. And I would say that there's a real benefit from cross-cultural mentoring. And I say this as a person of color who has had significant mentoring across cultures. And that has profoundly shaped me. In fact, when I was a pastor in Cambridge, when I was just a church planner, 29 years old, starting a new church, one of the first things I did is I went to about eight different African-American pastors, and I asked them to

[21:40] mentor me. And because I needed that in my life. I needed that voice of the elders and those who had gone on before. I was planning in Boston, Cambridge. I needed to meet with Boston pastors who had lived there for generations. And that meant that I was able to meet with them. And I was able to meet with them. And I was able to practice was very important, opening my heart, my ears, my spirit to those who had a different experience than I did. That's been an important practice. Just on a personal note as well, one of those mentors just recently passed away this past week. Pastor Warren Collins was a very dear mentor, African-American pastor, Pentecostal, was just such an important example for me. And I'm grieving that right now, even thinking about how that practice of having mentors of a different race and culture, and being in that place of submission. We have the one Black friend, or we have the one Latino neighbor, but do we have those who are of a different race and culture that are in our lives that can speak to us authoritatively as a pastor to us? Bishop Green and Bishop Ward and Bishop Thompson, these were very important African-American leaders in my life who formed me. Dr. Jennings and Dr. Carter, who were very

[22:48] informative in my formation as an academic. So it's not as if I'm just a regular pastor, but I'm a pastor. So I'm not an easy practice, but what are the practices where I can have mentors and influencers in my life who have a different race and culture? And I would add to that, of course, that that could be reading books. Sometimes we don't have proximity or the opportunity. I've been very blessed to have a significant Latino, African-American, and Native American mentors and friends in my life. Sometimes we don't have those opportunities, but there are texts and podcasts and just kind of different influences and people we follow. And so, we're going to have to take that into account. So, we're going to have to take that into account. So if you want to get some information for for for some information for some information for information for for some !

[23:51] some We'll just take it as you don't want to ask a question. All right. Brian, did you want to ask a question by Zoom? While you're thinking about that, if you want to ask a question by Zoom, turn on your camera. Brian's on.

[24:15] Go ahead, Brian. Were you talking to Brian or Ryan? Brian Smith, that's you. OK. Yeah, so this one's kind of maybe a little more hermeneutical or something like that. But Hans-Erik and I have had some discussions about the revised common lectionary, which sort of systematically ignores some parts of scripture. But I wonder if that R.C. L. could be holding us back from appreciating other parts of scripture that call us to cultural intelligence, engagement with others. So just kind of a theological kind of question. But just what are your thoughts on that? Sure. I wrote a book about five years ago called Prophetic Lament. And it's exactly addressing your kind of issue on this. And not going specifically into particular issues, but just some for for for for for for for for for for Methodists, Lutherans, etc., those who kind of go by a liturgy or a lectionary, even when the lament psalms and reading the text of lament are in there, and it's supposed to be part of your worship, lament psalms, lament hymns, the reading of the book of Lamentations or the teaching from that, many churches skip them. This is the work of Denise Hopkins at Wesley Seminary, and she was just noting that even if you're kind of assigned these texts, many churches, because of

[26:20] their hesitation to engage the breadth of scripture, will oftentimes skip these. So whether you have a lectionary or not, the general attempt to skip over the portions of scripture that are difficult to address is a common tendency. I looked at the hymns. There was a study done on hymns, and noticing that the Baptist and Presbyterian hymnals, about 80% of the hymns are hymns of celebration and triumph and victory, and only 20% are hymns of suffering and lament. Now in the Bible, if you look at the life of the Old Testament and the Hebrew people in the Old Testament in the psalms, the psalms are 60% celebration and 40% lament. Not quite 50-50, but you can see a better balance there. And so what we're seeing is, even when it's in the Bible, and we're seeing it in the Bible, we are supposed to read them and engage in our cultural captivity or our tendency to ignore certain portions of scripture or embrace other portions of scripture, that sometimes kicks in. And so again, the study that was done in liturgical churches, even if the lectionary assigned the Psalms of lament, or the Book of Lamentations, or the stories of suffering, they were glossed over or they were skipped over, because it was more fun to do the fun passages of lament.

[27:43] And so that to me is one of the things I talk about in terms of a global Christianity, for example. In Western Christianity, we tend to emphasize triumph and victory and winning, because that's our culture, you know, winning and victory and triumph. But in other cultural settings like Africa, Asia, Latin America, you have a lot more suffering narratives, because these are communities that are steeped in poverty. They have, you know, social injustice rampant around them. And so, you know, we're seeing a lot of that. And so, you know, we're seeing some some some some of sub-sahara africa uh the persecuted church in parts of asia um our engagement with the breath of scripture allows us to engage the whole story of christianity and not just the story that we see uh maybe here in the united states yeah at least in my life i know when i'm in a time of lament that's an opportunity for god to meet me in in a much different way than when i'm in a time of triumph amen thank you thank you brian and um kimmy put a put a oh she didn't have audio connected okay uh we'll ask we'll go to kimmy's question and then we have natalie's question is in the chat log and i have another one from her by email and i'm going to invite the rest of the

[29:25] church family to uh put your questions in the chat log right there i'm pointing at it right now yeah thank you for moving that caleb so kimmy's question is dr raw what have you found to be the most challenging aspect for churches to thrive in cultural diversity in our current climate so what are the biggest challenges what are the challenging aspects of that this is a tough question because there's many many different places but if i were to identify one area that maybe is harder to identify and harder to address is what we talked about in the talk the narratives issue because narratives are embedded and we act out of a ridiculous some some some some some some some some some characters, De Niro, Daniel Day-Lewis, Tilda Swenson. These are method actors. And what they do is they they really get into the character, like deeply into that character. So it was said when De Niro filmed Raging Bull, he actually fought professional fights because he wanted to be so into that character. It said like Daniel Day-Lewis actually wouldn't feed himself on set when he was playing a paraplegic. He actually refused to feed himself because he was so into that character. So if you run into Robert De Niro at a Starbucks in L.A., don't talk to him if

[31:07] he's in a mafia movie because he might respond to you like he's actually a mafioso. So that's how deeply these good actors get into their character. And the reason they do that is that once they're deeply into that character, their reflex, their instinct, their improvisation comes out of that character. In fact, a great book on this is by Sam Wells called Improvisation. But you improvise or you act reflexively and intuitively in reflexively when you deeply embed that character imagination narrative worldview. So that could be good if we deeply embed love, compassion, mercy, justice, the character of Christ, if that narrative and imagination is deeply embedded in, that's our reflex. But for many of us, we've embedded false narratives or dysfunctional narratives, racialized narratives, superiority narratives, divisive narratives, political narratives. These are the narratives that divide us. And they're so embedded into who we are, this character of the culture that we act reflexively out of them. And so we can't have a good conversation when we have so embedded these dysfunctional narratives that that reflects encounters some of the challenges. And the thing about challenges of things that make you uncomfortable about the truth

[32:37] is that it it digs into who you are. It challenges your identity. And many of us like to think that our identity is good. And there are there are good things about it. We're made in the image of God. We're redeemed by the gospel of Jesus Christ. But there are also parts of us that are broken and fallen. And sometimes when challenges come up, we get defensive and we say, hey, I don't want to. I'm not a racist. I'm I'm I'm a culturally sensitive person. And that's what I mean by going back to the spirit of God who is able to convict us. Hold on a second. Let's rethink this a little bit. Let's actually examine our hearts. Let's actually challenge some of these dysfunctional narratives that are embedded in. So it's a little more abstract and theoretical, but the idea that we have embedded in our hearts a way of thinking that is so a part of who we are, that when challenges arise, we don't know how to respond. And again, that's where the power of the Holy Spirit comes in to to move us to rethink that.

[33:36] And sadly, you see that you see people when you say, hey, let's talk about race and diversity, the immediate impulse is, oh, no, I'm not a racist. Oh, no, I don't want to talk about that because it makes me feel bad or makes me feel uncomfortable. Well, that stops the conversation right there. So how can we begin to open our hearts, open our minds and spirits to say, let's learn together rather than embed ourselves in the existing stories that we've told ourselves in each other?

[34:08] Good, I want to make a note that Pastor Steve had put in the chat log that our covenant affirmations include a conscious dependent on the dependence on the Holy Spirit. Yes, to be in line. That's good. I want to just talk about who's going next. We're going to have Natalie up next.

[34:22] She put it in the chat. I also have an email from her pastor, Victoria. Are you going to ask a question? No, you're just on. OK, and then Pastor Steve has a question in the chat log and then put some questions in this chat log here. We got plenty of time here. And then I have a couple of questions at the end if they don't get covered. So let's go to Natalie's question. And Natalie's first question is, what gives you hope?

[34:44] What gives you hope to persevere in the work of reconciliation? Or maybe the question is, do you ever get tired? Answer is yes, I do get tired. I think all of us get tired. Certainly, COVID hasn't helped in our fatigue.

[35:00] And, you know, it's challenging. And some of you know, I've been in this kind of reconciliation and racial justice and cultural diversity work for 30 years, 30 years plus. God put this on my heart when I was a college student. I was very thankful to be involved in a diverse ethnic, racially justice oriented group in a varsity group on the Columbia University campus, and we saw a lot of stuff and we lived through a lot of stuff together. As a community, we were an Ivy League school on the border of Harlem and Spanish Harlem. And we were diverse, a Christian community that needed to speak as a witness to a to a pretty fairly hostile Ivy League culture. And we wanted to embody God's justice. So these are the things that were kind of spoken to me from age 18 onward. And so I've been in this thing for about thirty five. Hold on. How long have I been in this thing? That's a long time. And of course, you get tired, you get you. You know, I sometimes repeat the things that I said 30 years ago and realize that the situation hasn't changed in 30 years for many people of color. And I don't it's not it's not a partisan political statement, but just the way many people of color felt leading up to the 2016 election.

[36:18] Some of the rhetoric that was there that just felt very harmful to African-Americans, Latinos, Asian-Americans, and even more recently with the API hate situation that arose. Those things really exhaust you. I think when you see that it continues to be a challenge, the needle moves, but it moves so slowly. But the places of hope are places like these churches, the two churches that I get a chance to speak to. The truth is, 20, 30 years ago, when we were talking about ethnic diversity, multiethnic churches, that was not on people's radar. So in 1996, I started a multiethnic church in the Boston Cambridge area. We were only the second multiethnic church in the entire city of Boston. And that was in 1996. And around that time in the 90s and the 80s and 90s, the dominant way of doing church was what's called the homogenous unit principle that was geared towards building mega churches, secret sensitives, and by secret sensitive, they meant come and be like us and be similar to us racially, economically. Socio culturally. So the attraction of these mega churches in the suburbs in particular were to upper middle class white suburbanites, and that's that they grew these churches that way. And so the 90s and the 80s was really kind of filled with those kind of churches.

[37:45] So in 1996, when we started our church in Cambridge, we really were the only multiethnic church or the second or third multiethnic church. But if you go to Boston now, 30 years later, there are many, many more multiethnic churches. There are churches that are intentionally multiethnic from the start or churches that are trying to become more multiethnic because there's a greater awareness of the need. And so I would say that one area of encouragement is that this is not just a theory that we talked about 30 years ago, that we got to change the way we do church, but people are really trying to practice it. People are really trying to live it. So I'm encouraged by churches like like yours, where we really want to work this out. And that was not around 30 years. Trust me, that was not a conversation we were having. But more and more churches are having that conversation and the desire to move there in that direction, diverse churches, ethnically diverse, culturally sensitive churches, that's huge that we've actually come that far, that we want those kind of churches now. That's excellent. And I think that answers Natalie's second question, which is, how have you seen things change over time since you wrote this book about 12, 13 years ago?

[38:54] And I think you just answered that. Is that is that OK? OK. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's what's interesting is I mean, it's funny to me that I write books like 15 years ago and then 15 years later, it's like, oh, it's relevant now, that's that's kind of funny. So I prior to many colors, I would have got the next evangelicalism. And it was kind of like, you know, say, hey, this is what's going to happen in the next 15 years. And nobody read it back then. Very few people read that book. The covenant folks read it, but that is really outside of that. And now people looking back and say, oh, wow, the things you said 15 years ago have actually come true. The megachurch era has come to an end. We saw that with the implosion of all these megachurches, the emergent church, which is so hot and popular 20 years ago, really doesn't exist anymore. The diversity in churches has actually happened. And we're seeing this in huge numbers. In fact, what I predicted by 2030 would have a 50 50 in the evangelical world. That already occurred by 2020. 70 percent of America identifies as white evangelical. Sixteen percent of America identifies as evangelicals of color. So by 2020, we already had a 50 50 split when it come to evangelical identification between whites and nonwhites.

[40:09] So I thought I was going to happen in 2030. It's already happened. So these kind of things are moving very quickly. So I'm thankful that something that I might have written 10 years ago is still relevant. And in fact, more people are noticing it because these factors are now right in our faces now, 10 years later. Well, I promise you, the most recent book you wrote will have you back in only five years to discuss it. Thank you. So next up, we have I believe Pastor Steve had a question. A very insightful question. And his question is, in light of the change of the center of Christianity from the West to the global south and east, which you mentioned, how should we revise our notion of missions?

[40:55] Yeah. And we have, you know, half an hour to answer that question. I mean, that's right. Right. That could be a whole colloquium, I think. Well, no, that's a whole Ph.D. Yes. If you can answer that question, you can get a doctorate with me. You can figure that one out. It's a whole Ph.D. It's a whole semester worth of study. It's it is actually one of the most important questions that school like Fuller schools like North Park schools are trying to figure out because the old way of doing missions. And I don't. I mean, old as in bad. I just mean old as in a previous generation was that Christianity is centered in the West and we take our Western form Christianity and we bring it into other places throughout the world now, as as I mentioned earlier and as most of you are already pretty much aware now, the Christianity is booming in almost every place but the US. So, you know, I study church growth and the three largest churches in the world. Are in Korea, the largest Pentecostal church, the largest Presbyterian church and largest Methodist church, all in Korea, right on the heels of that, of course, are the churches in Africa. And I've mentioned this before. In other contexts, the research on this is relatively thin, but it's a growing area

[42:13] of research. It's possible that China is the most Christian nation in the world right now in terms of raw numbers. So if we think about the data is anywhere from 30 million to potentially 300 million Christians in China. Now, again, we're talking about billions of people. So 300 million seems like a lot and it is. But we don't know because of the house church movement. We just have no clue how large the church is in China because you can't track the house churches that are growing so fast and they're so out of control in terms of the growth that it could be anywhere from 30 million to 300 million. Now, you know, let's cut the baby in half and say it's 150 million. How many people live in the US? 300 million. And not half are Christians. So we're talking about the number of Christians in China could be more than a number of Christians in the US right now. And we consider the US to be the most Christian nation. It really might not be the case anymore. So now we say, and this is getting to Steve's question. What are the lessons that we can learn? Well, what's happening in China?

[43:14] It's not the state sanction, the state powerful churches that are growing. It's the grassroots movements. It's the house churches, the local churches that are doing relational evangelism. They don't have to get on TV to do relational to do like or or or be on whatever type of ways to do evangelism that we've been doing in the past, they are doing this in a very deeply relational way, meeting at homes. So what are the lessons we can learn from that? So the issue now is not so much. Are we in an era where Christianity has moved beyond the West? That was never a question. Christian has always been outside of the West. It's always been growing. It's always been dynamic in Africa, Asia and Latin America. The question is that Steve is asking appropriately is what are the lessons that we learn? And there is a danger that we learn the wrong lessons. So in the past, there were lessons about church growth in India, for example, that got co-opted by the US. And that actually was the beginning of the homogenization principle. But we can also look at the lessons and say there was something deeply relational about the gospel in India that we should learn from. There's something profound about the way African Christianity deeply cares about their people and their immediate needs,

[44:31] their needs and hunger and poverty, Latin America with their with their emphasis on liberation that comes both on the individual level, but also on social structural, these are all lessons that we can learn as we are studying the church and learning these lessons, they're important things that we can gain. There's so many lessons that we're learning right now, again, the relational aspect of Christianity that maybe we've lost in the West, the need for Christianity to be a better public witness that you see in certain countries, the need for Christianity to spread organically rather than kind of an enforced consumer model. These are all very important lessons that we're learning from non-Western Christianity.

[45:19] Thanks, yeah, that's that's a good high level, and again, you're right, it's probably a PhD lesson. So I see Pam is on and we'll get to you last. But Pam, if you give a thumbs up, if you want to ask a question later.

[45:30] No thumbs down, OK, all right, so our next question is from Ryan Clint and Ryan is asking, how do we distinguish pardon me, another brilliant question, and he's my brother in law, so I have to say that how do we distinguish biblical truths from deeply held cultural values, how do we distinguish biblical truths from deeply held cultural values? And and that is one of the lessons we're going to I hope you kind of work through it with many colors and a lot of that is the necessary self-examination. And I would say this also, there are two ways that you can cut cut at this. One is those who are the insiders need to do the self-examination. And in order to do the self-examination, you've got we've got to know scripture better. Right. So one of the reasons I think I'm a pretty good critique of Western and American Christianity. Is that I grew up in Western and American Christianity. You know, my my seminary degrees are from Western American evangelical Christianity. I was part of it of our city. I've been part of denominations and, you know, conferences and that culture. I know that world well, but I've also been reading my Bible alongside that. And that's where because I know my inside culture and I've lived in that culture, I

[46:48] know the good, the quirks, the inconsistencies, all those things I know, because I've lived in that culture. I've lived in it for 40, 50 years of my life. And then I've also been studying the scripture alongside. And then the scripture convicts me of, hey, wait, that feels individualistic. But as I'm reading the Bible, I'm realizing how God speaks to the corporate mentality, the the people of God, the people of Israel, the church in Ephesus, the books of the Bible written to community. And why is it that my my understanding of scripture is so hyper individualistic? Well, I measured my culture. I remember some great great great great great great great great great great in my life. More recently, as you know, the most recent book I wrote was co-authored with a Native American scholar and activist, Mark Charles. And my relationship with him is one of my closest friends and a dear brother in Christ. Those things helped me to see things that I'd never seen before. Because as an outsider, in many ways, or from a different culture, he has an understanding that I don't have. So I have always grown up with a particular understanding of Abraham Lincoln, best president ever. But Mark, as a Native American, has a different outlook on Abraham

[48:15] Lincoln. Now, this is kind of a silly historical thing. But yeah, I needed to hear his perspective, because in the Native community, the laws that Abraham Lincoln put forth and some of the rules that he put forth were responsible for mass genocide. It killed off many, many Natives because of some of Lincoln's policies. So my understanding of Lincoln is different now, because I've learned from Mark, who has a different understanding. And I hope that's what we do with our Bibles, our culture of Christianity as well. And so, you know, I mentioned this in my experience in the Covenant, for example. So my background is I grew up Southern Baptist Pentecostal. There are very few of us, but I'm, that's why I'm in the Covenant, because I'm half Southern Baptist and half Pentecostal. On my dad's side, my great-grandfather was actually one of the founders of the first Baptist church in the Korean Peninsula. So his was the group that started the first Baptist church in the Korean Peninsula. And so, you know, I grew up in the Covenant. I grew up in the Southern Baptist church in Pyongyang, which is now in North Korea, and then they migrated down to Seoul, South Korea. So my heritage goes back quite a bit in the Southern Baptist convention, but I also grew up in a Pentecostal church. And so I have

[49:23] this, my background is very, you know, we might identify as low church, non-liturgical, you know, you know, Baptist Pentecostals are kind of the low church category. Then I get to North Park and I realized, wait, the Covenant is not all Baptist. The Covenant has some folks with Lutheran frameworks. And so I grew up in a Pentecostal church. And so I grew up in a Pentecostal church. And so I grew up in a Pentecostal church. And so I grew up in a Pentecostal church. And some, you know, who come from more liturgical backgrounds. And that space for me was so rich to be in that both-and space, to have a Baptist Pentecostal roots, but also engaged as very rich heritage that's of liturgy that's traditional and historical and rooted in that history. That both-and was really convicting for me that I needed both. And so part of our cultural heritage is that we have a lot of people who are from different countries. And so I remember some great great great great great great great great great great great great our culture and then hearing from outside voices that can speak to us and say hey have you thought about this in another way and that's why it's important you know my background is in history the historian's craft is to hear all the voices you can't just hear one voice and so when you

[50:44] talk about the history of america if you don't hear the native voices or the african slave history voices or the history of the civil rights movement and the same thing with church history if you don't hear those voices you're never going to challenge the existing narratives and so you've got to hear these voices that say yeah for native americans our story is different for african americans our stories are different and that's as much part of the american story as the pilgrims that landed on plymouth rock that's an important part of the story but you've got to hear these other stories as well if you want to get some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some the indians were just savages and we kind of and that was in you know maybe you're i'm your age maybe i'm 52 so we're going to to elementary school in the in the early 80s um and so i think i wonder if we need to be really distrustful of simple narratives and and be good historians and go look there's a lot of streams of information that we really need to pay attention to and then maybe this idea that scripture is always going to call us into a different culture of the kingdom of god which looks entirely different from the kingdom of the world as well yeah and i think it's

[52:27] my background as an academic and as someone who's been very blessed with a wide range in terms of my education that i always want to learn and that you know i think christians we should always be learners and that can happen on multiple levels it doesn't have to be phd level or seminary level we just we just i think we we just need to be learners and it's interesting for me so i've taught i taught a class in north park called journey to mosaic and it actually started and the pacific southwest conference and uh one of the uh sites that we would visit in part of our journey mosaic in chicago uh was the japanese american service center where uh the japanese internment survivors would would be and now many of them passed on but you know several years ago some folks who were in the 80s and 90s who survived the internment uh would be there to tell the stories i was always stunned at what percentage of the uh of my students had never heard of the japanese internment never heard of it and never taught that in school and that's stunning to me and they were like what is this what happened it was never taught to them and so there's so many huge gaps in our learning that to be a lifelong learner means to let's get these

[53:40] other stories that for whatever reason for a lot of different reasons it didn't fit our narrative it didn't fit the you know the imagination of american greatness we've ignored it and so you know to make the effort to learn these stories and again my friend andy colors is trying to make that attempt let's hear the other cultural social uh historical stories so that we can you know know more than than we did before and wake up yeah so our next question is from cliff tong he says thanks dr raw and his question is what narratives counter narratives parenthetically which narratives or counter narratives tend to be the most challenging for an ethnic church specifically an asian american church so what narrative narratives tend to be the most challenging for an ethnic church so grace community covenant church is a primarily asian american church so that's really asking about grace probably yeah well that's interesting because you know i i grew up in asian american culture but even more specifically korean american culture but um it's interesting because uh growing up in an immigrant church um some of the most deeply embedded narratives were narratives from my korean culture that made sense in american culture even if they were dysfunctional or not correct

[54:57] so there's ways that these narratives perpetuate on top of each other so for example um asian culture and korean culture in particular as some of you know has a very high work ethic and that work ethic is kind of a virtue ethic it's kind of a rooted in success but there's also a lot of shame and narratives tied into that work ethic right so if you tie all of that together if you tie them up for some some some some some some orientation that kind of maybe stereotype that we've kind of lived with as even as in humorous ways well that gets tied into some american narratives uh and that gets embedded in even deeper so we have these kind of uh approaches cultural dynamics in asian culture and it gets reinforced in maybe negative ways in larger american culture and so if there is the negative narrative of for example the model minority you've got a model minority mythology you have things within asian culture that want to tap into that right so in japanese culture for example there's a proverb that says the nail that sticks out gets hammered down right and so you want to blend in you want to you know i i joke about asian staple foods tofu and rice uh may not as flavorful in and of themselves but we're great carriers of other flavors and so

[56:48] how do we how does that kind of cultural dynamic tap into the american model minority and so there are narratives that american society perpetuates uh white centeredness uh model minority uh a racialization of of you know certain people groups and there are certain aspects of asian culture that might um tap into that or uh contribute to that so that's where i see certain aspects of our of a both end of the spectrum of culture and i think that's a really important thing to think about for example if like actually that sounds like a lot of work but it's probably well worth doing yes so uh let's we have well we're running out of we're not running out of time but unless you have to go somewhere i have two questions and but i don't want to you know hog it so if anyone has any last questions put those in the chat log now so we can get those on there my first question for you dr raw is do you know an originally angle in an originally anglo church so now i'm asking a question about a church like foothill which started more or less as an anglo church but has been becoming more ethnically diverse over the years do you know an example of an originally anglo church that has dramatically improved their cultural intelligence and what could we learn from

[58:29] them maybe so maybe an example out there in the world that we could tap into sure i think there are more and more examples of this so the two pathways for multi-ethnic churches and there's more but the two main ones that we've seen is i think the main one is the um you plant a multi-ethnic church so from the very beginning you have this kind of with built into the division like i said back in 96 that was our intention back then it was very few now you have much more especially in our in our denomination the very intentionality of multi-ethnic churches and in many cases we don't have to say it out loud because it's just the normal part of people's lives that we live in diverse community we're going to have a diverse church especially among younger people so that's kind of one pathway to be blunt it's probably the easier pathway right because you can start from scratch you can you know start with new values it doesn't mean it's going to be successful it just means in some ways you don't have to do some of the other stuff that existing churches might have to do and so but the exciting thing is i think both pathway pathways are both legitimate and possible uh by the way new church plans have a totally

[59:34] different set of problems and obstacles having been a church plan for myself there's a whole different set of problems that church plants also address uh but in a more established church that has a longer history um those communities i think uh can benefit from this kind of experience and and um and progress towards um um learning and that's that's the important thing for me a learning community so i would say across the spectrum so you have for example a denomination that went from 98 white swedish to i don't know what our numbers are but it's it's much better than it were 20 years ago so our covenant has has made that progress uh and so some of the examples on the cover now often say is it it was a vision right and the leaders of this denomination made it a very intentional vision to be a diverse denomination and went after it with resources uh with learning uh with uh with statements um with uh conferences that focused on the midwinter became a really important place where that value was transferred so what you saw in our denomination is a really good case study i think of uh an attempt to move from an all-white institution to a much more diverse and again leadership had to be on board um leadership had to commit to it put the resource to it whether it's financial or time

[60:53] or energy um the other thing that i think the covenant did well and this was at a particular time again i'm in my 50s now but about 20 years ago the covenant really made an intentional effort to bring in young i'll say it dynamic uh uh pastors for for for for for for for for And that's another thing where you want to be intentional to moving towards diversity.

[61:49] Are you honoring these voices that are coming from these different spaces? So thank you for reading my book, because that's another way to do that. So, yes, it is possible. We've seen it on, you know, on this large scale of a denomination. I've seen schools do that. NIA college is a great example. They were in the suburbs of New York and they were like 95 percent white about 30 years ago. They were very intentional about wanting to be diverse. And one of the major moves they made is actually ended up splitting the campus. Half stayed in the NIAAC in the suburbs. The other half moved to downtown New York or.

[62:27] Yeah, it's in Manhattan. And once that happened, they went from like 95 percent white to now they're 90 percent students of color. And that's the major change that faculty change, their administration change. That was a major change. And so they made a commitment again, put resources in it, hire faculty, hired staff. They did the work for their existing faculty, the student body. When they began to change, there was no like, oh, no, we're afraid of this changes. They embraced the changes that started to occur. They made the cultural changes that were necessary. So their chapel looks very different now than it looked 30 years ago. Their curriculum looks different now than it did 30 years ago. So it's the willingness to not only set the vision. But also to pursue it and to put the resources and the actual work into seeing those changes occur. And again, if you can have it on a scale as large as Christian colleges and denominations, I've seen it in churches as well. And that's very exciting to see.

[63:28] You've kind of answered my next question in a way, but. You know, Sunday morning is the most segregated hour in America. It's in your book itself. It's in the common sort of out there. But what. What do people need to sacrifice to desegregate worship? What do we need? That's a great question. That's a great, great question.

[63:50] And I know that my former provost and dear friend, Michael, Michael Emerson, has been working on some of these things now because Michael was very key in in putting the call out there for the need for multi-ethnic churches. If you ever have not read Divided by Faith, but United by Faith was the book that said we need more multi-ethnic churches. And to the credit of the church, we went from 4% multi-ethnic to 20% multi-ethnic over the 10% multi-ethnic. And we're we're above the double digit mark. The covenant went from 4% to 20%. But the church as a whole is still moving slowly. But we're moving along. We're moving along as a as a as a church. And but what we have what we have seen is that it's not easy. And the obstacles have started to spring out. And one of those is how do we worship together? Because that is a space that is very, very significant. The common worship space. Now here's what's interesting about a church plant. Church plants, generally speaking, tend to skew younger and a younger generation are much more nimble around worship. Right. So and I see this with my kids. I have a 21 year old and 18 year old. They have completely different music styles. And this was a few years ago on family vacation.

[65:06] They're sitting in the back seat and they started swapping headphones. And listening to each other's music. And my daughter declares after this drive, he's like, this is the summer Elijah and I learned that we do not have that different musical taste. Because if you're new about kids music, teenage music, there's a lot of like specificity. But there's a lot of overlap. Music is really interesting right now because you don't have the you know, when I was growing up, you had heavy metal bands and you had hip hop bands and never the two show meet. But right now, as many of you know, within younger generation, there's a whole lot of overlap. There's a whole lot of mixing of genres and a whole lot of mixing of that. So our young people know how to do this intuitively much better than we do, because we grew up with, you know, there are black bands and there are white bands, you don't mix them together. But now music is, you know, music is global BTS biggest music, biggest music act, and they're incorporating all these different styles of music. So that's what's interesting about what the culture at large is able to do, sadly, much better than we in the church are able to do. And that's where young people do this intuitively, instinctively, because that's part of their narrative, right?

[66:12] The narrative diversity is just normal for them because they grew up with it and it's an instinct for them. And so maybe there are some things that we can learn from the younger generation of how do we better integrate these different cultures? And a new culture begins to form as well. So I think I lost the focus of your question. But the idea is that is there a way this could happen? Absolutely. And, you know, I learned a lot from just kind of watching the way my kids interact in terms of their cultural dynamics and also seeing kind of younger students who are saying, you know, your idea of worship doesn't make sense because our idea of worship is, if it's tied into what's actually happening, the culture does look different. Now, again, the format, the structure, that's not necessarily the point. The point is that we know how to better integrate different cultures together. Then maybe previous generations did. So, yeah, there's a lot to learn from our younger generation about because, again, they do it more intuitively and naturally.

[67:12] And I think I mean, I'll answer my own question. I mean, I'm assuming to what do we need to sacrifice? We need to sacrifice some comfort, some familiarity and probably some power. Yeah. Thank you for the reminder that I went off on a tangent and forgot about that. OK, the sacrifice question, because that's an important one. And it is it is a sacrifice. And that's why I was going with the conversation on Michael. One of the other sociologists that I respect highly is Corey Edwards. She's a professor of sociology, committed Christian who writes about multi-ethnic churches at the at Ohio State. And she writes about the challenges of that and that sometimes, especially for people of color, to come into a space where everything is done in a style that is different from them. Most dominant culture folks don't realize how much of a sacrifice is being made by people of color just to enter into majority culture. And so I think that's a really important question. And I think that's a really important question. So if you look at some of the some of the some some some some some some some some some some some some some some She worked as a nurse's aide at an nursing home. So she worked in a service where she had to speak English, but she was never comfortable with English.

[68:39] It was a foreign language to her. She only knew a few words, a few phrases. But on Sundays, she was not just an immigrant worker. She was an elder, a deacon, a kwanzaan, that's the language we use in the Korean church, an elder woman of high respect. And that's a very different feel. And so if she were to go to a multi-ethnic church, it would be a real challenge for her. In fact, when I was pastoring a multi-ethnic church, it was a challenge for her to come to my church service because she didn't understand what I was speaking. She would sit in the back and read the Korean Bible. I'm the pastor. While I'm preaching, my mom would read the Korean Bible in the back because she didn't understand what I was preaching on. And so that's really a challenge. And that's a sacrifice that so many people of color are facing. We are sacrificing comfort, security that comes from the black church, from the immigrant church. And so is there a mutuality in the sacrifice? That the many times people of color that are coming into a majority white church, there's a huge sacrifice that is being made right off the bat. And so the expectation, I think, a justifiable one is to say, hey, can we come to a middle ground here?

[69:55] Can we meet somewhere in the middle? Rather than the people who are already coming into this with making huge sacrifices, let's figure out ways we can make sacrifices together. Thank you. That's good. Let's see. We have a few more. Brian put one into the other chat log. So he's written, and he's also in this chat log. Oh, also, by the way, Pastor Steve wanted to kind of call back. He said, thanks to what you said a few questions ago, we need to critique and dismantle the myth of the model minority. So he really wants to go after that one. And that's work that the Asian church, Asian American church needs to do. So I guess Steve is answering Cliff's question and kind of following on to your question. So it sounds like a lot of work. I mean, like I said, that's probably a lot of work. Let me ask. Ryan asks, I think you've written that in a group oriented culture, the emphasis is on acting cooperatively with a high priority on friendships and relationships. Members put the team or group ahead of the individual. His question is, how can we transcend the individual? And how can we make the individualistic nature of our culture and our churches? Yeah. So again, it goes back to narrative.

[71:04] Individualism is a profoundly embedded narrative. It's our instinct. It's our intuition. It's our reflex. And so how do you confront narratives with counter narratives? So I say things like, so, you know, when I wrote a lament, we talked about this a little bit earlier. The easiest thing to do with a lament.

[71:23] To try to introduce lament to your congregation. Is to do one sermon on lament. Maybe during, you know, lent. And that's easy. Because it's kind of a one off. You check that off and you've done it and you kind of move on from there.

[71:36] Practical theology means you practice that theology. That's kind of a little mantra. Practical theology, practice that theology. And so if you really want to see lament embedded, you create the counter narrative lament by practicing lament over and over again. Not just once. You don't get good at a split. You don't get a support or a hobby by just doing it one time a year. And then you're out. You practice that. And so what I say about lament is. Okay. Do a sermon series. But let's see lament in your worship. Let's see songs of lament. And the explanation of why we're doing a lament. Let's see prayer of lament. Let's see testimonies of lament. I challenged this when I talked to urban pastors. Urban pastors love to put the story of their successes out there. And they say. Oh. This. This brother who I know in the neighborhood, he was on drugs for 16 years, and now he's clean and sober, and he's a deacon in the church. That's a great story. We want to hear that story. But let's be honest. If you've ever done urban ministry, 9 out of 10 don't get off the streets. 9 out of 10 are still addicted to drugs. They'll come in, and they'll want to be clean. And there's stories that I want. There's stories I'm already in the middle of it.

[72:46] Can we tell those stories? Because that's the story of lament. You know, yeah, we want to hear the stories of, yeah, I worked through my depression, and I'm better now because I've worked through my depression. But, you know, sometimes we lament alongside those for whom depression is not so easily swept away. And that's 99% of us who struggle with depression. Depression is not so easily swept away. So those are practices. You practice it in your worship, in your prayer life, in the testimonies, in the preaching. And so that's where I would say you practice that in your churches. So, you know, a good practice. Many. Churches do now is to change all the I words in songs. There's so many. I used to joke about this. And when I was a worship leader that you remember back in the day when we used to have transparencies, you would have these, you know, overhead transparencies. And you would have a box that you would put up on the overhead projector. And you would you would you would look at the letters. They were in alphabetical order. And you would have a few with letter A, letter B. But like half the songs began with the letter I. Go back and look at the inventory of songs. Half the songs begin with the letter I and the rest are, you know, other letters of the alphabet.

[73:56] J is still small, you know, for Jesus. It's still a small folder. So what does that tell us? We're really so individualistic oriented in our worship that that's and that gets reinforced in the practice of worship. And so how do we begin to change worship so that the songs are we cry out, we cry out together, not just I cry out. We cry out together. We cry out on behalf of others, not I cry out because I feel this way today, but we cry out for the pain. We cry out for the family of George Floyd. We cry out for the family of the of the immigrant that that got separated at the border. We cry out on behalf. And so that changes that hyper individualistic orientation.

[74:41] You know, sometimes in Scripture, you know, we take what are intended to be community oriented. We take what are intended to be community oriented. We take what are intended to be community oriented. And we hyper individualize them. The illustration I use is I know the plans I have for you, plans to prosper you. I've heard that preached so many times in the singular. You, the individual, will be blessed and prospered. So you're driving a Honda now, but you're going to get a Mercedes Benz because I, the Lord, have plans for you to prosper you. Well, you all know that the word you there is plural. I will bless you, God's people. And so by even simply accurately reading Scripture. Could be a good practice. How we read Scripture in community in our small groups, not just, well, this applies to me personally because I'm going to do this. But, hey, what does this mean for our community to practice learning as a community together? So, yeah, that's what practical theology is. How do you demonstrate and practice the counter narrative of individualism? What does community life look like? How do you celebrate that? How do you point out the places where community life is flourishing? Not just individualism. But individual life.

[75:51] That's good. Let me read one thing that Pastor Steve wrote. He says, Sarah Lanier, and I've seen this podcast. Sarah Lanier gives a great description of the contrast between hot climate and cold climate cultures in her book, Foreign to Familiar. Oh, I'm sorry. That's about hot and cold cultures. I don't think we have time for hot and cold. There is a question about hot and cold cultures, but I think we need to go ahead. My suggestion would be that. I lose. I use Lanier very. That's the centerpiece of one of the chapters. So when you get to that chapter, make sure you address that because it's hot and cold. I also use primary secondary. There's a lot of different categories. East West sometimes in kind of an extreme, extreme kind of caricature. Eastern culture is hot. There's a lot of different kind of categories of culture. Hot and cold is really a really good one. Guilt, shame, dynamic, primary, secondary. So there's a lot of different ways that you can kind of put culture into these larger categories.

[76:51] That's really helpful in more of a generalization way. But of course, you can generalize the culture, but there are always outliers and there's always differentiation within the culture itself. But it helps to know the larger general cultural context because then you can have more conversations about a communal way of relating, not just the individual way of relating.

[77:11] Thank you. And you know what I want us to do now? Well, just to follow up on lament. Martin. Luther used to say that we have this story we love to tell about ourselves, and it's called the glory story. And it's always the victory, but it's not the defeat. But in the cross, we find both defeat and then later victory in the resurrection. But to live in that moment of those few days. And I agree that the church does not. I think that was really fascinating what you said about even liturgical churches have skipped the Psalms of lament and the readings from the Book of Lamentations. Yeah, we need to recapture that. It's so anyways, thank you for that. What I would like to ask you to do, Dr. Raw, is to be our pastor in this next moment and give us the benediction and a blessing because Foothill is embarking on on a six week study of your book. So could you just pray for us that the book would bless us and that we would become a more culturally intelligent and culturally competent church and do more for what God wants us to do in this area? And then that'll be the end of the service. People stay on. We have a postlude by Yuki. And then there's also a chat afterwards for anybody who wants to do coffee hour, virtual coffee hour.

[78:21] But I'm going to ask Dr. Raw to give us the benediction and ask him to bless us. Amen. Well, thank you. Thank you, folks, for the chance to be with you today. Gracious God, we trust in a God who is able to do immeasurably more than we could ever hope or imagine. And we trust in a God who promises that you who began a good work in us to be faithful to complete it and keeping those two passages in mind. And I pray those two as well. And I pray that you will pray a blessing for these communities, that it is not an easy task. It is not an easy work. But you, Lord, are the author and perfect of our faith. You are able to do this even beyond our hope or imagination. You have a larger narrative in mind. And what you promise in in Revelation seven nine, you are able to do much better than we could. So we're going to put a blessing upon this time together as a congregation. And I pray for your movement of your faith. May you remember our Holy Spirit. May you remember our Holy Spirit Holy Spirit you remember our Holy you remember Holy remember our Holy Spirit May you remember our Holy remember our Holy Spirit May our Holy Spirit Holy Pray.